Topic: Edirol R-09HR - Part FOUR

[lordbelial]

Another question: Which AA rechargeable batteries should i buy? I tested with an old pair of NiHm 2400 mAh and the R09-HR lasted for about 4 hours, using internal mics, mp3 recording.

[Gutbucket]

Take a look in the remote power forum.

[su6oxone]

Another question: Which AA rechargeable batteries should i buy? I tested with an old pair of NiHm 2400 mAh and the R09-HR lasted for about 4 hours, using internal mics, mp3 recording.

I recommend sanyo 2700mAh rechargeables.  I've gotten 7+ hrs recording at 24/96 and 9+ hrs at 24/44.1, both with the backlight on continuously at the lowest brightness setting.

[Brian Emerick]

yeah I like the Eneloops

[mfrench]

I finally broke my original issue R09 line-input jack last night. Bummed.
I thought I could make it last forever, and I know I could have made it last a lot longer; but I dropped it 10', and it landed squarely on top of the input cable, and broke the jack.
The 10' drop didn't kill the unit, just broke the jack. I plugged into the mic-in, and got the capture.

[ssmyth]

  Thank you everyone! just read all four sections!  and subscribed!

I would like to ask a recommendation for the following scenario:

We are using the SP-BMC-3 Sound Professionals Standard Binaural microphones for recording voice only interviews.



One mic per person and we are just going to record in 320 mp3

I am assuming I plug into the mic input.
I am assuming the plugin power is turned on.

What gain would you recommend?

What should I look for on the meter?

Any other tips?

I will post pics of the setup.

Cheers

Stephen

P.S. Upgraded to 1.06 and running Sandisk Ultra II 16g (class 2) no problems  (Note: I was having the freeze issue with 1.05 using the same card)

[rastasean]

play with the gain until the meter is around ~12. if one talks louder than the other, move the mic further away from the mouth because you cannot adjust channels separately.

[bucsab12]

Hello everyone. First of all, I wanted to thank all of you for all the great help and the vast amount of knowledge that you have shared on this forum. It has really gotten me into the recording hobby and it it something I greatly enjoy.

I have a zoom H2 and I am interested in replacing it with an Edirol R-09HR. I have gone through the 88 pages of this thread from start to finish and I have a few questions and issues I would like to clear. I will really appreciate if you could help me. I am sorry if some of these seem really stupid but I am a real noob and I wasn't able to find the answers on my own...

1. What does a "hot signal" mean?
2. From what I understood a preamp is used to boost the signal that enters the mics before it reaches the recorder. What will be the difference between two recordings where in the first one, a preamp is used and in the second, using only a BB but then amplifying the recording later using a sound editing software? What will be the difference between the two?
3. Should a preamp only be used in an acoustic, quiet concert?
4. If I am using the following setup: external mics>preamp>R-09HR, if I turn up the gain dB notch on the preamp, will I see the change reflected in the meters of the recorder?
5. on page 12 of this topic, the user Belexes wrote:

I keep my pre on +20 (cranked all the way) and 40 on the HR.  Dial down on the 9100 if it's a very loud concert and watch the clip light to make certain you are not clipping at the pre stage.

If the light on the preamp flashes, from what I understood it means that the signal is too high. Is that the signal that enters the mics when it arrives to the preamp or is that the signal that comes out of the preamp after it has been amplified.

I am sorry about all the questions and thank you for all your help.

[ssmyth]

Thank you rastasean...I will use your distance tip this weekend!

If I set the input to stereo I could always edit the L & R channels in post to amplify if needed?  or if I set to mono I just have one file unbalanced.

Cheers

[digifish_music]

1. What does a "hot signal" mean?
2. From what I understood a preamp is used to boost the signal that enters the mics before it reaches the recorder. What will be the difference between two recordings where in the first one, a preamp is used and in the second, using only a BB but then amplifying the recording later using a sound editing software? What will be the difference between the two?
3. Should a preamp only be used in an acoustic, quiet concert?
4. If I am using the following setup: external mics>preamp>R-09HR, if I turn up the gain dB notch on the preamp, will I see the change reflected in the meters of the recorder?

1. One that has plenty of input strength (gain), in other words you don't need to turn up the preamp much to get a high input level. This may be because the audio source is very loud, the mic sensitive, mic is close to the audio source or a preamp between the mic and recorder turned up high.

2. No it boosts the signal after it leaves the mics and before entering the recorder. Most recorders have inbuilt preamps too (R09HR for example).  What's a BB? Anyhow, it all depends on how good (quiet) the preamp is. External preamps are almost always better than the inbuilt ones on sub $500 recorders. The preamp also allows you to exercise more bits of the A/D converter, which is a good thing.

Think of the total chain this way -

Mic --> External preamp --> | Internal preamp --> Peak metering --> Analog to digital converter

You may or may not be able to bypass the Internal preamp, this is why many people here are asking about 'unity gain' for the inputs, so that the internal mic preamp isn't doing anything (boost or cut) when you are using an external preamp.
                                 
4. Yes. Since you are changing 1.

5. The light is a clip-indicator. It means the signal entering the A/D converter (after the external and or internal preamps) has maxed out. I.e, is now clipping = can't record a louder noise than just received = bad = distortion in recording.

This may interest you...

http://www.digifishmusic.com/public/articles/edirol_mic_preamps.htm

digifish

[bucsab12]

Thank you very much digifish for helping me with all these issues. I really appreciate your help. I am now also looking at the link that you attached to find some more info. Can you please clarify these few issues:

2. in BB I meant battery box. I thought I saw some people using that abbreviation but I guess I made it up   

If I have the two following setups:

A. External Mics>Battery Box>R-09HR

B. External mics>External preamp>R-09HR

What will be the difference between a high signal that enters the recorder after going through an external preamp (option A) and a lower signal that was recorded only using a battery box (option B) but will be later amplified by a sound editing program? In both cases the sensitivity was set at unity gain. Is the only difference is that the preamp creates an analog amplification while the sound editing program creates a digital one or is there anything else that I am missing?

5. I didn't quite understand how the signal can be too high for the preamp so its clip light is flashing? I thought that the preamp is only used to amplify the signal that enters the mics before it goes to the recorder. That may eventually create a signal that will be too high for the recorder to cope with. So what does it mean that the clip light on the preamp is flashing? Doesn't it only add some +dB to the signal so how can it be clipping?

Thanks again and sorry for all the basic questions...

[69mako]

4. My experiences have been that I get a better sounding recording when I use option B.  Actually, I no longer use a BB and only use my 9100 preamp.  When you record at a lower level and amplify in post you are amplifying the musioc and the "noise".  By using a preamp you can send a "hotter" signal to the recorder with a lower noise level.  In turn you will get a better sounding recording. 

5.  If music is too loud you can exceed the limitations of the exquiptment you are using.  I've never had it happen but I know Belexes overloaded his preamp/mis at a Tool show a couple year ago. 

Good luck!

Thank you very much digifish for helping me with all these issues. I really appreciate your help. I am now also looking at the link that you attached to find some more info. Can you please clarify these few issues:

2. in BB I meant battery box. I thought I saw some people using that abbreviation but I guess I made it up   

If I have the two following setups:

A. External Mics>Battery Box>R-09HR

B. External mics>External preamp>R-09HR

What will be the difference between a high signal that enters the recorder after going through an external preamp (option A) and a lower signal that was recorded only using a battery box (option B) but will be later amplified by a sound editing program? In both cases the sensitivity was set at unity gain. Is the only difference is that the preamp creates an analog amplification while the sound editing program creates a digital one or is there anything else that I am missing?

5. I didn't quite understand how the signal can be too high for the preamp so its clip light is flashing? I thought that the preamp is only used to amplify the signal that enters the mics before it goes to the recorder. That may eventually create a signal that will be too high for the recorder to cope with. So what does it mean that the clip light on the preamp is flashing? Doesn't it only add some +dB to the signal so how can it be clipping?

Thanks again and sorry for all the basic questions...

[bucsab12]

Thank you 69mako for clearing that up.

I know it never happened to you but can you tell what would cause the clip light on the preamp to flash? Will it only happen if the music is really loud and the preamp is set to add the most gain?

Do you think it is possible that such a scenario will damage the preamp?

[su6oxone]

I know it never happened to you but can you tell what would cause the clip light on the preamp to flash? Will it only happen if the music is really loud and the preamp is set to add the most gain?

Do you think it is possible that such a scenario will damage the preamp?

I'm far from an expert, but I would venture that unless the gain pots were set too high, the clip light on the preamp is most likely (analog) overload of the mics or preamp.  I think the preamp is more likely to be overloaded than the mics, but it depends on the mics of course.  The user guide that came with my Schoeps CCM4s states that basically the only sound level loud enough to overload the mics would be so loud that it would cause instant hearing damage, though the max SPL is listed as 132dB.  An explosion is stated as an example.  Coupled with a 702 which has a pro line level in (+4dB evidently) and I never have that happen anymore.  But hopefully someone more knowledgable (paging DSatz) can chime in.

[digifish_music]

A. External Mics>Battery Box>R-09HR

B. External mics>External preamp>R-09HR

What will be the difference between a high signal that enters the recorder after going through an external preamp (option A) and a lower signal that was recorded only using a battery box (option B) but will be later amplified by a sound editing program? In both cases the sensitivity was set at unity gain. Is the only difference is that the preamp creates an analog amplification while the sound editing program creates a digital one or is there anything else that I am missing?

5. I didn't quite understand how the signal can be too high for the preamp so its clip light is flashing? I thought that the preamp is only used to amplify the signal that enters the mics before it goes to the recorder. That may eventually create a signal that will be too high for the recorder to cope with. So what does it mean that the clip light on the preamp is flashing? Doesn't it only add some +dB to the signal so how can it be clipping?

Thanks again and sorry for all the basic questions...

If you are recording loud sources (bands) the differences between A and B won't be important. In my testing of the R09HR + BB (ART Phantom II) + AT3032 mics ...



...was so low in self/internal-preamp noise that in a loud environment (95% of what seems to be taped here) it would do a great job. It was about the same as the R44, which is also perfectly OK for recording using the internal pres. Indeed the R44 is great for recording any performance, acoustic, classical, amplified. So the same goes for the R09HR + BB. What will be more important is the external mics you choose.

On the other hand, if you plan to record ambient sounds then none of the preamps in the recorders in my test cut it. That's why I bought a MixPre, but that's not what you will be doing AFAIKS.

5. You said 'amplify the signal that enters the mics' again. The signal goes from the air to the mics to the preamp. The preamp does not do anything to the signal before it enters the mics, that's airborne sound at that point. The preamp amplifies the signal that comes out of the mics before passing to the A/D converter. 

Most digital recorders have clipping indicators for the digital to analog converter. The R09HR manual says the peak light is a clipping indicator not an preamp overload.

digifish