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Author Topic: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)  (Read 102684 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #480 on: August 19, 2019, 03:30:35 PM »
All stereo microphones have two outputs. A mid/side mic might output Left/Right or Mid/Side or be switchable between those modes.

If recording using a Mid/Side setup (either using two separate microphones or a single Mid/Side microphone with Mid and Side output) plug the Mid microphone into input 1 or 3, and Side into input 2 or 4.

Unless you need to have L/R stereo available immediately for a patch out or for headphone monitoring, record those channels directly without processing.  You can then dial in the best Mid/Side ratio afterwards, either using the R-44's playback decoder if listening directly from the recorder, or on the computer in your mixing software.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 03:55:24 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #481 on: August 19, 2019, 03:45:48 PM »
I am trying to squeeze another channel out of this recorder. 
If I use a bi directional mic.  and flip the phase, will i sort of have another channel?

No, you'll get a polarity reversed yet otherwise identical copy of that channel.  Same if you did that for any other microphone or channel.

You can't get another actual channel output, but you can do a little trick to work around the total lack of monitor and output buss pan controls on this recorder.  You can effectively pan channels 1 (or 3) to center by engaging the Mid/Side playback decoder for that channel pair.  Doing so routes channel 1 (or 3) to both L and R equally (which is the same as panning to center) rather than chs 1 and 3 always being routed Left. 

That will also route ch 2 (or 4) to both L and R equally, yet with polarity inverted to the R output side.  But unless ch2 (or 4) is a Side channel or a rear-facing microphone channel you probably don't want that, in which case you can just set the ratio to 100% Mid, which will effectively mute ch 2 (or 4). 

So you can get one input panned to center, yet can only use 3 channels for output that way.. unless the extra is a Side or ambience-only channel.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 04:14:56 PM by Gutbucket »
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Elguapo511

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #482 on: August 19, 2019, 04:56:11 PM »
So, does the "extra channel" mean I have a fixed stereo with a hard left right center that I can manipulate later?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #483 on: August 19, 2019, 06:41:19 PM »
Not sure what you mean by "extra channel"

You can record 4 channels into the R44 and you can output those 4 channels directly, or output a hard-panned stereo mix where ch1&2 are always hard-Left and 3&4 are always hard-Right (Noting the work around mentioned above)

Afterwards on a computer you can pan or otherwise route the 4 channels anyway you want.  Or do the same old-school style by playing the 4 individual channels directly from the recorder through an outboard mixer or some other devices used to do the rouging/panning/mixing.

The constraint is patching out a stereo mix while recording or playing back a stereo mix directly from the R44.  In that case channels 1 and 3 are always routed Left and channels 2 and 4 are always routed Right.. (again, noting the work around above)
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Offline detroit lightning

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #484 on: September 04, 2019, 02:27:33 PM »
Urgent-ish question about using an external battery (dynex 9v lithium ion). In the R44 menu for battery type, it gives a few options (adapter, 9v, 9.5v, lithium ion I think, more?) - which do I want?

Thanks!!

Edit - I should have used the damn search function. Looks like "adapter" is what I want...thx & sorry for the clutter!
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 02:36:51 PM by detroit lightning »

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #485 on: September 04, 2019, 04:28:40 PM »
Urgent-ish question about using an external battery (dynex 9v lithium ion). In the R44 menu for battery type, it gives a few options (adapter, 9v, 9.5v, lithium ion I think, more?) - which do I want?

Thanks!!

Edit - I should have used the damn search function. Looks like "adapter" is what I want...thx & sorry for the clutter!

As I understand it, the menu choice mainly affects the battery meter. Like you, I choose adapter but also load the battery tray with fresh batteries. That way when the external battery dies, it will switch seamlessly to the internal batteries. Just a good safety precaution.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #486 on: September 04, 2019, 05:46:55 PM »
If you rely on the battery's built-in meter to gauge remaining charge, set the R-44 to "adapter".  The R-44 will display a miniature A/V plug icon on screen and revert to internal AA's when the eternal shuts off.

If you do not have a built-in meter on the external battery you can set the R-44 to the "nominal output voltage" of the external battery. You may be able to then use the display on the R-44 to gauge remaining charge of the external battery (I've never done this so I cannot confirm).   The R-44 will revert to internal AA's once the external battery output voltage drops below the nominal voltage setting, even if the external battery itself has yet to shut off.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline detroit lightning

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #487 on: September 04, 2019, 07:16:49 PM »
Cool, I think the battery set to adapter + backup batteries in the tray is what I want. Still need to do some testing on how much juice that will give me at 4CH, but I imagine it will be more than enough for most of the shows I do.

Thanks!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #488 on: September 05, 2019, 09:34:06 AM »
That's how most folks run it.  The potential danger of setting a cut-off voltage on the R-44 (instead of setting it to "adapter") is that the recorder could switch from the external battery source prematurely when supply voltage drops.  I think that functionality is really meant to help manage a "dumb" SLA based external battery, rather than LiIon which include built-in protection/regulator circuits.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #489 on: September 05, 2019, 02:21:54 PM »
Here's a new one.

I've been trying to work out a way to feed 2 digital channels into 2 R44s chained together as Master & Slave and I've found no earthly way to do it.
Right now I run one digital in to channel 1 of the master with the record settings set to "digital and analog" stereo x2. Great.
That takes the digital feed perfectly and channel 2 is analog in with 48p to power another set of mics.
That leaves me with the chained slave R44. And last night I had a thought: what if I just wanted 3 channels and set the slave to digital in stereo x1? Maybe?

Instead I learned that if your system is set to SLAVE, it won't accept a digital input. Even just one R44 set to slave and set to digital in stereo x1 and not chained to anything will not get a signal.

So back to the drawing board. 2 digital preamps, one to channel one of the master R44, the second into a PMD661 digital in, then the RCA jacks out of the 661 to the XLR in for the R44.
The signal is hot and I have to run it with the SENS knob all the way down (-56dbu!) but it takes the source and lines it up with all my other R44 files. The files from the PMD661 run at a different speed and don't line up, but I think that since its all happening during recording at the show in real time, there isn't really any lag.

BUT, is there any degradation in sound?

I don't think so.

Anyway, that's a lot of gear and it sure is heavy!

Just putting this here in case anyone searches for any of this info.

I still can't find a better way to synch 2 digital inputs using 2 R44s.

And you DEFINITELY can't use the digital in when the unit is set to slave.
this is definitely not normal

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #490 on: September 05, 2019, 02:44:54 PM »
You could do the same using the alternate R44 instead of the PMD661 as the second deck.  Wouldn't be clock locked, but since both free-running recorders are identical models, less drift is likely.  Also means working identical transport controls which is likely to be faster, less operator error prone, and provide similar start delays and pre-record times.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline cybergaloot

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #491 on: September 05, 2019, 03:29:41 PM »
Cool, I think the battery set to adapter + backup batteries in the tray is what I want. Still need to do some testing on how much juice that will give me at 4CH, but I imagine it will be more than enough for most of the shows I do.

Thanks!

Just a note of precaution in case you don't know, be sure the polarity of the DVD battery cable is correct. The Roland/Edirol external power socket polarity is backwards from what most manufacturers use.

I used DVD batteries + internal batteries with mine for years and I usually get a day and a half at festival running two mics.  More like a day with four mics.
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Walter

Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects. Will Rogers

MICS: Line Audio CM3, CA-11 (O & C), CA-14 (C), CAFS, Studio Project C4 (O,C, HC), Studio Project LSD2, ADK-tl, ADK-A6, ADK-5.1, MXL 603S, JM-27s, Sennheiser e600 Drum Pack, Avantone Drum Mic kit, Shure MX393S
RECORDERS: Zoom F8n w/ F-control, H2, DR-40, R16, R-44, HD24, DR-2D, DR-44WL, DR-07, Denon DN-500R
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Offline morst

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #492 on: September 05, 2019, 04:33:14 PM »
I've been trying to work out a way to feed 2 digital channels into 2 R44s chained together as Master & Slave and I've found no earthly way to do it.
If the channels are not synced at their own master clocks, they won't be synced when you record them, no matter what transport(s) you use to record.
Why not just use two different machines to record the two Digital signals, and sync later?
OR (and I know this is not what you asked) just use one digital signal, and let the rest be analog and synchronous?
hey now!

Offline jb63

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #493 on: September 05, 2019, 07:08:26 PM »
You could do the same using the alternate R44 instead of the PMD661 as the second deck.  Wouldn't be clock locked, but since both free-running recorders are identical models, less drift is likely.  Also means working identical transport controls which is likely to be faster, less operator error prone, and provide similar start delays and pre-record times.

I never thought of that! Don't sync the R44s and run RCA out to XLR in on the other.
That makes both channels of one synced and from the digital preamps, but leaves me with one unsynced track which oddly enough would sync up with its partner channel but not the others...

Its rough. I think I still need the 661 or MT2 in the chain in order to get 3 stereo channels to line up.

If the channels are not synced at their own master clocks, they won't be synced when you record them, no matter what transport(s) you use to record.
Why not just use two different machines to record the two Digital signals, and sync later?
OR (and I know this is not what you asked) just use one digital signal, and let the rest be analog and synchronous?
Solution 1 is perfect, but even the 2 R44 have significant drift when not tied together (and they are RIGHT NEXT to each other!)
Solution 2 is where I'm at now. I can't stand trying to sync stuff up that isn't, and I find the R44 to do a good enough job for my needs. I really should learn to live with just 2 channels, eh?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 07:12:20 PM by jb63 »
this is definitely not normal

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: edirol/roland r-44 (part five)
« Reply #494 on: September 05, 2019, 07:40:26 PM »
If the channels are not synced at their own master clocks, they won't be synced when you record them, no matter what transport(s) you use to record.
Why not just use two different machines to record the two Digital signals, and sync later?

That's true and what the scenarios above do, except they provide a synced copy of the primary channels from the first machine on channels 3/4 of the other.  That copy is one DAC>ADC generation degraded, but having having the otherwise exact same content on both machines makes the syncing and drift correction chores considerably easier.  He can match that single channel to itself, instead of to a different mic pair.

Quote
OR (and I know this is not what you asked) just use one digital signal, and let the rest be analog and synchronous?

This is the practical answer.  If you need both recorders because both preamps are digital out only, try mixing the files from the recorder that ends up with both sets on it and see how good that is.  It will probably be just fine.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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