Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4  (Read 54463 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dogmusic

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 830
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #330 on: April 20, 2018, 07:35:34 AM »
I don't understand what difference "first stage" or "second stage" gain makes. It's the same preamp/input stage and all analog gain before the AD stage. How the computer thinks about it is sonically irrelevant.

I thought that First Stage refers to trim and is the amount of signal that the preamp sees from the input.

And that Second Stage refers to fader and is post-AD and is the amount of signal the track sees.

I thought it had been established that you cannot attenuate the analog signal going into the preamps on the MP6 except with the limiters. So all gain control is post preamp.

EDIT added last paragraph
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 08:04:19 AM by dogmusic »
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline rippleish20

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 992
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #331 on: April 20, 2018, 09:01:36 AM »

This allows you to use the big knobs for controlling gain at the ISO level but what you are controlling is the second stage gain


The custom (advanced/simple) route  simply triggers ISOs to be recorded post fader in addition tothe L/R track.  They explain in their own video


Neither of the above is fully correct when you use the menu path of: In System > Set Mode to Custom and then in Custom Setup, set
Gain to Basic and Channel to Advanced. (As Noah also correctly states above)  I checked with Sound Devices because I was sure I had full gain control and they clarified as such.
This is from my second email as the first one was really informative but not as crystal clear. (and to be brief that is because at the ISO setting above, the mix is also controlled, but if you do not use the mix it does not matter) Again to be clear the answer is for the path stated above.

Hello Clifford,

When linked, one fader will control gain for both inputs.  Yes, this is full gain range from OFF to maximum gain.

Best regards,
Danny


I understand how to  set the mixpre so you are controlling ISO gain with the big knobs!!! Everyone re-iterating this is not responding to my point. My point is more what is happening within the deck wehn you do this. There are very long threads about the Mixrpre-3/6/10 because there are many subtleties that have not been explained well. In some cases, we have been given conflicting information. If I am misunderstanding the mechanics of how the gain stages work, I am more than happy to hear a clear explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=36&v=vL_dmV8n43c

This is a video FROM Sound Devices and the implication is that my statement from above IS correct

The video explains how to use custom mode and then concludes "And there you have it, now post fade signal, controlled specifically by the channel knob, is being sent to all your ISOs."


https://www.dvestore.com/blog/video-sound-devices-mixpre3-and-mixpre6-modes-and-signal-routing/


"If you want discrete, isolated tracks, then you need to be in Advanced or Custom Mode. When you record ISO tracks, the tracks will record the audio signal that is post-gain but pre-fader to the isolated track. This is what we call pre-fader or pre-fade recording. However, you can have the ISO tracks be post-fader. You need to be in Custom Mode and enable advanced settings for both "Channel" and "Record." This makes the ISO tracks post-fader. In Advanced Mode, the MixPres are configured as either five or eight-channel recorders depending on which one you have. ... You also have separate control over the trim control which is the gain, as well as fader control."

I am assuming  trim is one gain stage (one amplifier) and the fader is a second gain stage (another amplifier). Both of the above imply that the custom mode node thing is recording ISOs post fader. While I recognize they are both analog stages, my preference is to control gain at the first amplifier. That's all I have been implying since the beginning of my points. It was never a question of how to set the deck use Channel Knobs to Adjust ISO Levels.

So, are there two amplifiers? If gain under the custom scenario is post fader, what is happening at the trim level?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 09:18:25 AM by rippleish20 »
Schoeps CMC6 (MK22's) / AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) /  Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / Audio Technica AT4050ST/ AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni) /
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Roland R-07 /Tascam DR-100mkIII /

Offline dogmusic

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 830
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #332 on: April 20, 2018, 09:20:45 AM »

So, are there two amplifiers? If gain under the custom scenario is post fader, what is happening at the trim level?

My understanding is that there is NO trim level.  Other than engaging the limiters, you can only affect gain post preamp.
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline rippleish20

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 992
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #333 on: April 20, 2018, 09:37:21 AM »

So, are there two amplifiers? If gain under the custom scenario is post fader, what is happening at the trim level?

My understanding is that there is NO trim level.  Other than engaging the limiters, you can only affect gain post preamp.


 
I record in advanced mode. You set the ISO gain by going to the gain menu item for the individual channel and using the knob on the side to adjust gain. In addition, I can change the gain for the L/R recording using the channel knobs. There are clearly two stages of gain, and I would assume two amplifiers, at least in advanced mode..


In custom mode, you believe that the first stage is eliminated/bypassed and even though they are referring to it as post fader, only one amplification is occuring? You are not trying to suggest there is no trim period - regardless of mode - are you?



« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 09:52:52 AM by rippleish20 »
Schoeps CMC6 (MK22's) / AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) /  Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / Audio Technica AT4050ST/ AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni) /
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Roland R-07 /Tascam DR-100mkIII /

Offline Gordon

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Gender: Male
    • my list
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #334 on: April 20, 2018, 09:50:54 AM »
I'm so confused!   :cheers:
Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II

https://archive.org/details/fav-gordonlw

Offline dogmusic

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 830
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #335 on: April 20, 2018, 10:08:34 AM »
You are not trying to suggest there is no trim period - regardless of mode - are you?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I thought it had been previously stated (somewhere) that only the limiters can affect analog input and that the input signal can only be attenuated post preamp.

It may be that all we can affect is the level of the digital signal post-AD going to the tracks or the Mix.
"The ear is much more than a mere appendage on the side of the head." - Catherine Parker Anthony, Structure and Function of the Human Body (1972)

"That's metaphysically absurd, man! How can I know what you hear?" - Firesign Theatre

Offline aaronji

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (8)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *
  • Posts: 2812
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #336 on: April 20, 2018, 10:17:07 AM »
It may be that all we can affect is the level of the digital signal post-AD going to the tracks or the Mix.

The analog pre-amps have a gain range of +6 to + 76 dB...

Offline fanofjam

  • Trade Count: (4)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #337 on: April 20, 2018, 11:57:36 AM »
Has Sound Devices published the routing schematic for the MixPre3, 6 and 10?  That would eliminate alot of confusion about trim and fade, first and second stage gain...etc. 

The manual for Zoom F8 included a schematic of the routing of the ins and outs and showed exactly what each of the controls were doing.  Really made operation much simpler to understand.

Offline dallman

  • Site Supporter
  • Trade Count: (30)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • *
  • Posts: 1721
  • Gender: Male
    • Clifford Morse
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #338 on: April 20, 2018, 12:39:56 PM »
In trying to keep it simple:
Hello Clifford,

Thank you for contacting Sound Devices.  When you set GAIN to BASIC and CHANNEL to ADVANCED, one fader knob controls both the ISO level and the L/R level at the same time.  The comment is worded a little oddly.  This setting allows the user to control both the ISO gain and the L/R mix gain with a single control.  You are controlling both ISO at full gain and L/R Mix with secondary gain with one fader knob.  Hopefully that makes a little more sense!

Best regards,
Danny Greenwald
Support Live Music: Tape A Show Today!
Deck>possibly something here> Mics

Offline rippleish20

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 992
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #339 on: April 20, 2018, 12:44:21 PM »
Has Sound Devices published the routing schematic for the MixPre3, 6 and 10?  That would eliminate alot of confusion about trim and fade, first and second stage gain...etc. 

The manual for Zoom F8 included a schematic of the routing of the ins and outs and showed exactly what each of the controls were doing.  Really made operation much simpler to understand.

I concur 100%. The F8 diagram is why  I am questioning what is happening on the Mixpre-6 when you use custom mode with gain set to simple.  Trim and fader on the F8 appear to be two different amplifiers. ISOs recorded post fader on the F8 would presumably go through two gain stages.
Schoeps CMC6 (MK22's) / AKG C480B (ck61, ck63, ck8) /  Neumann KM100 (AK40, AK50) / Audio Technica AT4050ST/ AT853s  (cardiod, omni) / CA-14 (cardiod) / CA-11 (Omni) /
Mixpre-10t / Mixpre-6 / Roland R-07 /Tascam DR-100mkIII /

Offline Gordon

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Gender: Male
    • my list
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #340 on: April 20, 2018, 02:47:06 PM »
I don't pretend to know anything about any of this but just saw this on facebook......


Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II

https://archive.org/details/fav-gordonlw

Offline jazzgtrl4

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Taperssection Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 847
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #341 on: April 28, 2018, 02:06:28 PM »
I'm so confused!   :cheers:

lol,  Hi i just got a mix pre6. Have been reading through this thread a little..So whats the best way in a nutshell to get up and running?,  I know RTFM,  Im just looking to get started using two channels, setup like my 722 was with gain knob adjustment on the front.  I need to update to the newest firmware.   I know you guys have gone through these units and whats best for our purposes.  thanks
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 02:14:44 PM by jazzgtrl4 »
KM140/50's>V3>MiniMe>Marantz PMD661/MTII
Telefunken ELA M260's>Sonosax SX-M2>ad2k+
KM84i's seq s/n
AKG C414 B-ULS
SD Mixpre6

Offline Gordon

  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 11349
  • Gender: Male
    • my list
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #342 on: April 29, 2018, 09:28:45 AM »
Quote
to use the mixpre6 the way tapers are used to using "recorders," do the following:

In "System" set the mode to Custom.
In "Custom Setup" set "Gain" to "Basic" and "Channel" to "Advanced."

Link 1-2, 3-4, & 5-6, or 1-4 and 5-6 or not at all.

Then leave it that way and don't worry about it any more.

That's about it!  I only have one set of mics and use 3 & 4 for sbd's.  So I leave 1 & 2 on mic in/phantom on.  3 & 4 are left on line in/phantom off.  I link 1 & 2, and 3 & 4 (only need one knob for both channels of gain).  To turn channels 3 & 4 on you just hit arm.  Pushing the gain knobs gets you to those settings.

I have not updated to firmware v2.10.  Still on v1.53 with zero issues.
Microtech Gefell M20 or M21 > Nbob actives > Naiant PFA > Sound Devices MixPre-6 II

https://archive.org/details/fav-gordonlw

Offline morst

  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3969
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #343 on: May 06, 2018, 04:24:17 PM »
Joining the thread because I am going to buy the 6 as soon as I finish reading Thread #3 all the way through.

Looks like I'm going to be spending $899.99 at either Sweetwater, B&H, or Full Compass, unless anyone would like to convince me otherwise? I've bought good gear from all three and had varying degrees of good customer service from each. Figured I would bounce it off the panel before pulling the trigger. Should I be doing business with Trew, Location Sound or Gotham, are they that much more excellent?

Thanks! :wink2:
hey now!

Offline jbell

  • TDS
  • Trade Count: (144)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4183
  • Gender: Male
  • Spreadicated
Re: Sound Devices MixPre-3 and 6, Part 4
« Reply #344 on: May 06, 2018, 04:46:38 PM »
Don't think it really matters!  Pricing is the same.

Joining the thread because I am going to buy the 6 as soon as I finish reading Thread #3 all the way through.

Looks like I'm going to be spending $899.99 at either Sweetwater, B&H, or Full Compass, unless anyone would like to convince me otherwise? I've bought good gear from all three and had varying degrees of good customer service from each. Figured I would bounce it off the panel before pulling the trigger. Should I be doing business with Trew, Location Sound or Gotham, are they that much more excellent?

Thanks! :wink2:
Microtech Gefell m20's> Nbob KCY> Naiant PFA(60v)> Sound Devices Mixpre-6 @24/48

-22        -12         -6        TDS     
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]][}   
]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]][} 
__________________________
|Record|  Runtime: 4:19.99  {|||] 75%

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.057 seconds with 57 queries.
© 2002-2020 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF