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Author Topic: Backwards DIN  (Read 1909 times)

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Offline Limit35

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Backwards DIN
« on: December 06, 2019, 03:00:41 AM »

I really didn't know what to put in the subject header to accurately describe this phenomenon I have seen. I have noticed this setup every once and awhile, uncommonly at shows I have gone to over the years, different folks, running their mics like a separated X/Y or a backwards DIN kind of setup. I really want to ask them why they are choosing that setup but don't want to bother, more often then not they seem to have a decent rig. I have never heard one of these recordings from the shows I was at and I think for good reason I imagine. I was wondering if there is some historical/hysterical reason for this offset X/Y, backwards DIN setup.

Maybe I should explain it better. It looks an attempt at X/Y with mics on the same vertical plane and the capsules are spaced about two inches apart. Now that I am looking my hands trying to figure it out, it is probably a backward NOS. Because the XLR ends are usually pretty far apart. I just assume there has to be a "back in the day" story and these guys are not budging from that setup. I have seen this setup in old Dead taper section photos and I am pretty sure I have never heard those recordings either because I can't imagine it sounds good.


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2019, 09:04:20 AM »
I suspect what you are describing are Schoeps vertical-address capsules (mk4V or mk41V) mounted on a bar originally intended for the standard end-address version of those mics.  It is, or at least was a somewhat common setup for those vertical address microphones.  Using the end-address version of the microphones the setup would "look normal" with the mic housings angled forward toward the stage.  Innovative tapers learned that the vertical address versions could use the same bar, yet since their diaphragms face perpendicular to the housing, flipping the bar backwards ends up pointing them toward the stage with the same angle and almost (if not exactly) the same spacing.  As long as its a 90 degree angle bar (DIN/NOS), the angle between capsules ends up the same with the bar flipped.  Flipping an ORTF bar (110 degrees) produces a 70 degree mic angle which can be useful for getting the capsules closer to on-axis with the stacks, but a 70 degree angle between mics would ideally use increased spacing between them to keep the image width from collapsing.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 09:20:43 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2019, 09:17:18 AM »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2019, 09:25:11 AM »
backwards on an ORTF bar is an old favorite for the V capsules, it directs them at 70 degrees
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Offline Walstib62

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2019, 10:53:55 AM »
Yes it is side address vs. end address

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2019, 01:04:47 PM »
FWIW, it's highly unlikely but possible that at least one of the instances you've seen actually was standard end-address capsules facing away from the stage (yet did not represent a taper f*&%-up!)  ;).  I currently run a similar configuration in a multi-microphone array for ambient room and audience sound pickup, albeit using different microphones.  Those channels are either routed to surround speakers or blended into a 2ch stereo mix at lower levels.  Some DMB tapers did some stuff like this in the 2000's, producing quadraphonic recordings encoded to DTS, although most of those that I'm aware of used different methods.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline Limit35

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 02:34:28 PM »
Thanks for the enlightening Schoeps info but these are end address microphones, not in an array either. I asked about it twice without being rude about it and all I got from the guys was their rig info, AKGs in both cases oddly. I have seen it maybe 4 times live, just recently hence the post, and in older photographs. I guess it is just misinformed X/Y I suppose or maybe if one didn't have a riser and couldn't vertically align the capsules? But then just flip it around and do a near-coincident recording, I don't know. I will just have to ask the "WTF, is that?" question whenever I see it again.

Offline perks

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 03:16:54 PM »
I'm confused - the taper is running SDC capsules directly attached to the mic bodies and they have these mics in what kind of a mount? When you initially said running DIN backwards I immediately thought they must be using a real Schoeps bar or one of the many HQ copies like the ones available from Kwon, NOLA, or It Goes To Eleven. But those bars are designed work with the use of active cable rig.

Are you saying the taper is using a t-bar with clips that appears spaced roughly the dimensions of DIN?
Mics: Schoeps MK5, Schoeps MK41, AT853u (C,SC,H,O), DPA 4061
Preamps/converters: Schoeps VMS52UB (x2), Nbox (x2), E.A.A. PSP-2 (x2) Grace Lunatec V2 (for sale), Sound Devices MP-2 (for sale), DPA MMA6000, Naiant Tinybox v1.5, Naiant PiPsqueak, Church Ugly, Apogee Mini-Me, Benchmark AD2k+
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Korg MR-1, Edirol R-05, Sony PCM-M10 (x2), Tascam DR-07, Marantz PMD-661, Sound Devices Mixpre-3

Offline Limit35

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 05:28:44 PM »
Are you saying the taper is using a t-bar with clips that appears spaced roughly the dimensions of DIN?

Yep, but backwards...
                                             [stage]
 
                                                /  \
                                              /      \

Here are some photos old photos I found from a quick look online.
Rear rig, right side...https://www.davidmeermanscott.com/hs-fs/hubfs/GD_tapers.jpg?width=343&name=GD_tapers.jpg
Guns, center right, 1:00 of the sign or PZM mics...https://jranderson.photoshelter.com/image/I00008S4oliarlKc

Offline heathen

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 08:14:59 PM »
Are you saying the taper is using a t-bar with clips that appears spaced roughly the dimensions of DIN?

Yep, but backwards...
                                             [stage]
 
                                                /  \
                                              /      \

Here are some photos old photos I found from a quick look online.
Rear rig, right side...https://www.davidmeermanscott.com/hs-fs/hubfs/GD_tapers.jpg?width=343&name=GD_tapers.jpg
Guns, center right, 1:00 of the sign or PZM mics...https://jranderson.photoshelter.com/image/I00008S4oliarlKc

Looks like an attempt at XY without the capsules being aligned vertically.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline Limit35

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2019, 01:28:15 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.

Offline Walstib62

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2019, 08:24:42 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.


When you said "backwards" I thought you meant that the mic capsules were facing away from the sound source. In the pictures, it looks like the capsules are facing the sound source.

Offline heathen

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2019, 10:00:59 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.

Don't worry for a second about "bending the rules."  There are no rules...just do what sounds good to you and feel free to experiment (unless of course you're recording a band on a professional level, in which case there are some expectations).  You can do the same setups other tapers are running, or you can try something different...it's all up to you.  But don't fret for a second about any "rules" or how your rig will look to someone else.  We need more variety and experimentation, IMO.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline goodcooker

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2019, 10:10:48 AM »
Exactly, I was just wondering if there was some taper folklore about this setup. It seems in this day and age there is no reason to setup that way. One can hear examples from many sources and one has plenty of information on what is a typical setup is to figure things out. I admit I will bend the rules within certain situations but this one I cannot figure out.

I ran into a couple of newbies in the past that seemed to want to run their mics that way for some weird reason. I remember one dude at a Built to Spill show and he was running his mics "toed in" so that the right mic was pointed roughly at the left side of the stage and the left mic was roughly pointed at the right side but with a good six inches of space between the capsules. He couldn't wrap his head around the idea that he needed to plug his cables in reversed from the way he had them and I'm guessing his tape was not very good.

I tried some wonky stuff early on just to see what would happen and other tapers would give me shit about it but since there were other tapers it didn't really matter if my experiments didn't work out.

I tend to stick to things that I know will give me the result I'm looking for based on previous experience but I definitely do not stick to the conventional wisdom all the time.
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Offline noahbickart

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Re: Backwards DIN
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2019, 10:59:07 AM »
I’ve seen people run that way before. I don’t understand it, but, to be fair, I’ve never listened to such a tape.
Recording:
Capsules: Schoeps mk41v (x2), mk22 (x2), mk3 (x2), mk21 & mk8
Cables: 2x nbob KCY, 1 pair nbob actives, GAKables 10' & 20' 6-channel snakes, Darktrain 2 & 4 channel KCY and mini xlr extensions:
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