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Author Topic: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?  (Read 1828 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2020, 12:11:37 PM »
On mic setup, I've some general advice for running 4 mics: 
Decide if your intent is 1) comparison of the two pairs or hedging the bet by running two separate pairs and choosing the better of the two, or 2) the combination of the two pairs.   I've found it best to approach those different goals in different ways.

If comparison or hedging the bet, set up each pair individually.  Each in a stereo configuration you think will be optimal given the particular polar pattern of the mics and the recording situation you find yourself in.  Here's a good method for optimizing setup of a stereo pair in isolation: Improved PAS table  Even though that method specifically targets the Point At Stacks technique, it's actually provides an optimal solution for any situation in which the angle between the two microphones is the same as the desired recording angle, regardless of the presence of a PA or not.  It is more or less inclusive of what the common near-spaced mic setups such as DIN, NOS, ORTF, etc are intended to achieve.

If wanting to mix the two pairs to best effect, that is what the Oddball Mic Technique threads are about (this has been a particular interest of mine).  In that case it's better to move away from what works best for a stereo pair of mics on their own, considering the far more complex interaction of more than two mics being mixed together. My general advice is to use a coincident pair (X/Y or M/S) in between a pair spaced at least twice as wide as you would if using the spaced pair on its own.  A coincident pair needs microphones with a directivity of cardoid or greater (cardioid/super/hyper/fig-8).  The pair which is spaced twice as wide or more can be of whatever directivity you wish.  Using 4 cardioids can work.  If you choose to use a pair of less directive mics like subcardioids or omnis, use them in the wide-spaced pair position.

We can go into lots of specifics and details of variations to this, which are what oddball threads cover, but the bit above is the essential core of it.  The oddball threads essentially document the evolution of this approach over the past 14 years or so, in greater detail than will be of interest to the majority of tapers.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:14:40 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2020, 12:47:22 PM »
Thanks for all the encouragement and tech tips, guys.  I've definitely benefited from it all, and I've enjoyed the links you've provided.   Some of them are PACKED with info, much of which I don't understand, but I'm sure my recordings will benefit from them.

Gutbucket:  My goal for recording is to obtain the stereo feel created by the w-i-d-e spacing of mics pointed to the outside edge of the PA stacks, and I want the two mics in the center to fill up the "hole in the middle" sound (probably by placing them in XY configuration).   In summary; I want all 4 mics to be audible on the same recording.

I like the idea of using four cardioid mics for all this (probably with MBHO 440s in the center),....with the option to eventually upgrade the outside mics to some high quality subcardioids. 

I'm inclined to purchase this T-bar:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1314009-REG/on_stage_my800_quick_release_stereo_bar.html
...because I'd like to play around with this mic configuration (except the top pair of mics in XY, not ORTF):



Offline heathen

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2020, 01:00:13 PM »
I think you'll benefit from having more flexibility in how wide you can space the outer mics.  If you're just running open, take a look at this bar: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503258-REG/Manfrotto_154B_154_Triple_Microphone_Holder.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9_zQi_qf6gIVTvDACh1nzQJOEAQYASABEgJVgPD_BwE (you can work out a solution for the center pair, maybe by using a Shapeways XY mount or the like).
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2020, 01:22:46 PM »
I'd not seen that modular On-stage bar before.  It should work for cardioids and if going that way I'd use it in it's widest (straight horizontal) configuration for the outer pair.  The bar heathen links is a popular option around TS and is nice because it can go wider, which would be necessary for omnis, and useful for subcards that are angled forward rather than pointed directly outwards to either side.  The biggest practical constraint is how wide one can go given the constraints of the venue and your recording location in it, so you'll need to judge for yourself what you may or may not be able to use at the venues in which you'll be recording.  Its very nice to be able to "go wide" with the outside pair when you can.  Think of that pair as playing the role of spaced omnis to a significant degree, even if they are actually cardioids.

When limited in how much spacing you can achieve and using a directional outer pair, you can compensate by angling the outer pair outwards more than you otherwise would.  That works without the problems it would otherwise introduce for that pair in isolation because the center pair remains close to on-axis and "fills the center" with direct-arrival sound.  In other words, you can trade off spacing for angle to some degree with less compromise when that pair is supported and anchored by the center pair.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline aaronji

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2020, 01:34:34 PM »
The problem with that Manfrotto 154B is that it is freakin' huge. I have been using a bar from mic-bar.com that is much less bulky and can be configured however you want. See this thread. Kind of pricey, though. followingbob said he is making another run of 24" bars soon. The Grace Spacebar is another option, but that is really expensive.

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2020, 02:44:46 PM »
Thanks for the advice on the mounting bars, guys.  I had actually previously checked out that Manfrotto, and it's good to hear they're highly regarded.  So, I figure I might as well get both the Manfrotto and that On-Stage MY800,...because why the heck not?  Sometimes I'll need a tight footprint, and other times I'll be able to spread out like Al Bundy on a couch.

You guys have been great with all your recommendations/tips etc.  Thanks a lot.

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2020, 03:03:58 PM »
You could also use one of these extension poles with a small clamp. With a stud in the female end, you can screw mic clips on both ends and have both a nearly 3ft wide, adjustable omni bar and a good start on a clamping setup.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5359-REG/Manfrotto_122B_122B_Adjustable_Pole_for.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/546394-REG/Manfrotto_171_171_Mini_Clamp.html

This is what I use for split omnis after selling a very heavy AEA wide stereo bar.

Mics: nbobs/480+ck61/62/63; C568EB; MKE2
Recorders: MP6; A10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2020, 04:05:05 PM »
Manfrotto makes good stuff.  I've used their stands and adjustable poles.  I've not used the bar heathen linked, but it is well regarded by other tapers running multiple mics, because it is sturdy, stable and easy to use.  One potential issue is that as aaronji notes it is quite large, perhaps as much in appearance as in actuality.  I've not seen any one do this with it, but as a way of minimizing overall visual impact I'd be tempted to rotate the rather tall movable mic attachment "risers" forward instead of having them point upwards, assuming the bar is round in cross section and that's a viable option. Doing that would place the mics, bar and support risers more or less in the horizontal plane and greatly reduce the apparent visual size of the entire array, especially for anyone behind the recording position.

It is helpful to have a few alternative mounting options to choose from, and you are likely to home-in on which work best for you after going through the motions and feeling out what you are comfortable with at a few shows.  May take some trial and error there.

Here's another general rule of thumb setup suggestion- when using omnis or forward-facing subcardioids as the outside pair, try to arrange things so you can get 3' spacing between them.  5' is better, even 6' or more if possible. The problem is that represents a lot of spacing given what is available from most mic bars and often is simply not practical unless using more than one stand.  If you are using directional mics as the outside pair you can do the angle/spacing trade-off thing to get away with less spacing by angling them outwards, but its better if you can achieve enough spacing to not be forced into doing that.  Some setup details can help, like attaching the outside pair to the outer ends of the mic-bar such that the clips and/or shock mounts extend beyond the overall length of the bar, increasing the overall spacing.  Such an arrangement also helps minimize visual profile.

One way of achieving that spacing more easily is using a lighter-weight pair of mics for the outer pair which require less substantial support.  One way of achieving that may be simply placing the heavier pair of mics in the center, another is using arrangements which separate the the mic capsules from their amplifier bodies with a cable, so that only the capsules need be supported out there.  I use miniature DPA omnis on thin telescopic arms the diameter of a pencil which I can extend out to 6' and are nearly invisible, with larger/heavier mics in the middle where they are easily supported.

Using cardioids, I'd try to arrange things to get 2' at minimum between the outside mics, and if you can get 3' or even more all the better.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline heathen

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2020, 04:39:33 PM »
I've not seen any one do this with it, but as a way of minimizing overall visual impact I'd be tempted to rotate the rather tall movable mic attachment "risers" forward instead of having them point upwards, assuming the bar is round in cross section and that's a viable option.

The Manfrotto bar is round and would allow for this.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline aaronji

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2020, 04:48:08 PM »
I've not seen any one do this with it, but as a way of minimizing overall visual impact I'd be tempted to rotate the rather tall movable mic attachment "risers" forward instead of having them point upwards, assuming the bar is round in cross section and that's a viable option.

Yes, that's possible. Each of the three supports can rotate around the circular bar and each has a screw to tighten it down. I have done this a couple of times.

Here's another general rule of thumb setup suggestion- when using omnis or forward-facing subcardioids as the outside pair, try to arrange things so you can get 3' spacing between them.  5' is better, even 6' or more if possible. The problem is that represents a lot of spacing given what is available from most mic bars and often is simply not practical unless using more than one stand.  If you are using directional mics as the outside pair you can do the angle/spacing trade-off thing to get away with less spacing by angling them outwards, but its better if you can achieve enough spacing to not be forced into doing that.  Some setup details can help, like attaching the outside pair to the outer ends of the mic-bar such that the clips and/or shock mounts extend beyond the overall length of the bar, increasing the overall spacing.  Such an arrangement also helps minimize visual profile.

One way of achieving that spacing more easily is using a lighter-weight pair of mics for the outer pair which require less substantial support.  One way of achieving that may be simply placing the heavier pair of mics in the center, another is using arrangements which separate the the mic capsules from their amplifier bodies with a cable, so that only the capsules need be supported out there.  I use miniature DPA omnis on thin telescopic arms the diameter of a pencil which I can extend out to 6' and are nearly invisible, with larger/heavier mics in the middle where they are easily supported.

Using cardioids, I'd try to arrange things to get 2' at minimum between the outside mics, and if you can get 3' or even more all the better.

Another way to get really wide spacing, when it is an option, is to use multiple clamps. I have used a pair of SuperClamps to spread omnis many times, but, of course, it requires the right rail/stage-lip to pull it off.

I have also been tempted to buy Robert's "gross AB", which gets to about 4 feet, multiple times, but haven't pulled the trigger as of yet.

[EDIT TO ADD:] The other cool thing about that "gross AB" set is that it is completely modular; it consists of two 57 cm bars, that can be used separately, connected by an ORTF mount...
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 04:52:29 PM by aaronji »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2020, 06:18:46 PM »
^Does look like a quite nice, well-designed bar.

Rocksuitcase and Kindms commonly use the method mentioned of clamping individual mics to a rail across the back of the venue at the Egg in Albany, NY to setup these kind of multiple mic arrays without using a stand or mic-bar, and it seems to work out quite nicely there.  Good option when you can do it, but obviously specific to the venue.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2020, 06:54:58 PM »
Soooo, I've been listening to a ton of recordings for my new rig.  I'm contemplating the Telefunken ELA M 260 cardioids as my center pair of mics.  They're $2,500 per pair:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ELAM260CST--telefunken-ela-m-260-cardioid-small-diaphragm-tube-condenser-microphone-stereo-set

Every recording I've listened to made with these mics is buttery smooth and beautiful to my ears.   If this sounds crazy, let me know ($2,500 is a lot of money).

For the "outside" far left & far right mics, I plan on using my existing AKG C1000s (until I can upgrade to something nicer).

So, the entire rig is looking like this:
A pair of Telefunken ELA M 260 cardioids in XY centered between a pair of AKG C1000s which are spread wide, pointed just to the outside of each stack,...running directly into a Sound Devices MixPre 6.

Offline heathen

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2020, 08:00:47 PM »
If you like the sound that's all that matters. Those are certainly quality mics.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2020, 10:23:03 AM »
x2

On the arrangement, my suggestion is to invert things angle-wise with respect to the two pairs.  Center X/Y pair Pointed At Stacks, wide pair +/-45 degrees minimum, which is likely to point that pair wider than just-outside-of-stacks.
^
I find this arrangement works well indoors, and outdoors when you can only achieve a wide spacing of about 2' or so.  If you can space more, you can get away with angling the wide pair less if you like although there are good reasons not to do so in most cases.  In this way the coincident center pair becomes primarily focused on clear pickup of direct-arriving sound from the PA and stage, providing clarity and precise imaging but a somewhat limited spaciousness and width.  The wider spaced and angled pair then balances what would otherwise be a rather narrow X/Y angle for a coincident pair used on its own, contributing increased difference information with less direct center weight where the X/Y pair steps in and does its thing.

This leverages the advantages of using 4 mics by differentiating the primary role each pair plays in the combined whole without too much conflict with the other, making for a "team effort" of all 4 mics working together rather than individual superstar pairs setup such that each attempts to achieve the best balance of everything on it's own.  Direct clarity and imaging from the center coincident pair, and spaciousness width and environment from the wide pair - at least to a somewhat increased extent, it can never be completely differentiated.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline capnhook

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Re: might start taping again. 4 mics -> Wendt X4 -> Apogee AD -> DAT?
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2020, 11:44:50 AM »

This leverages the advantages of using 4 mics by differentiating the primary role each pair plays in the combined whole without too much conflict with the other, making for a "team effort" of all 4 mics working together rather than individual superstar pairs setup such that each attempts to achieve the best balance of everything on it's own.  Direct clarity and imaging from the center coincident pair, and spaciousness width and environment from the wide pair - at least to a somewhat increased extent, it can never be completely differentiated.

x2

Get one of followinbob's 2 foot mic bars, and get back out there.

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