Topic: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder

[Gutbucket]

Fun with sum/difference processing!

Sound wise it ends up being somewhat akin to the more common 4 channel arrangement of a Mid/Side pair + a spaced L/R pair mixed together.

I originally did that as a playback work around for the lack of panning control on the R44, where channels 1 & 3 are always routed Left and channels 2 and 3 always routed Right.  Only way I could get channel 1 or 3 panned to center was to turn on Mid/Side decoding, which assigns those channels as "Mid".  The additional pseudo-stereo aspects of the rearward-facing Back channel acting as Side-channel was secondary and sort of came along for the ride after the primary goal of getting the forward facing center microphone channel panned to center had been achieved.  Thankfully it proved useful and attractive despite the asymmetric low frequency reinforcement/cancellation.  Taking it one step further by routing the rear-facing channel left and right but with a symmetric polarity-inverted phase relationship, achieved by way of that VST plugin, avoids all the asymmetric reinforcement/cancellation stuff.

[morst]

It's more than just clever, it's genius level, and my hat's off to you, Igor!

[cj.flac]

Ran these hat-mounted with AT943 cards 4.7k modded as mic in, first at +21dB then at +24 dB. Still plenty of headroom, excellent results. Maybe I should've actually uncoupled the gain control to adjust for L/R imbalance, but kinda hard to make that call in the field.

[lpmaskman]

Has anyone tried it with Panasonic WM61A capsules? I have a pair of it that I built about 15 years ago and I dug it up and connected to this recorder. Since these capsules are not really low sensitivity, maybe they are good with this PIP to record purely acoustic performances? Like a singer and and a guitarist performing in front of you.

[Gutbucket]

Should power them okay.  Best to do a test to determine where the SPL overload point lies.

[lpmaskman]

I will try it somehow, maybe with loud speakers to find out which level settings are good.

Also installed firmware v2.1. Did anyone notice anything improvevent? It just says fixes rare bugs.

[grawk]

I will try it somehow, maybe with loud speakers to find out which level settings are good.

Also installed firmware v2.1. Did anyone notice anything improvevent? It just says fixes rare bugs.

I didn't run into the bugs, but I haven't seen any problems since upgrading to 2.1. 

[Gutbucket]

^ Same.  Prior to using two PR-2s simultaneously sharing control and clock sync via the Sidus app, I upgraded both recorders to the latest firmware about a month back.  Have made 2 recordings since then, both without recorder related problems.

..which is not to say without any problem. I neglected to use a locking input Y cable into the newer PR-2 and that connection came loose prior to the second recording session.  Both recorders ran fine and seemingly in sync, just without any content being recorded onto the second one.  Bummer.  Should have gaff-taped that connection at least.

[2manyrocks]

Been a while since I last posted. 

Local college choir hasn't updated their on line performance video in a while. Typically 30 members, piano and sometimes organ.  One or two soloists.  Sort of thinking about shooting an updated performance video for them. 

The most simple audio recording setup for me would be midside into SD702 and then manually sync to video.  However, I'm wondering about using the PR-2 to send timecode into one or two unused channels on my old DR680 so I'd have more audio input channels than just the two on the SD702  and maybe use a splitter cable to also send TC to my Nikon Z50 II to sync up the recording?  edit:  The Nikon does not have a dedicated timecode input.  Timecode would have to be input via the camera's microphone input jack.   

Thought about buying a new timecode capable recorder, but I don't really want to buy any more audio recorders.   

I don't know how strong the TC output is on the PR-2.  With other timecode devices, I've read that sometimes the TC signal output may not be strong enough to split like this? 

Then I'm wondering how much drift I'll still have between the DR680 and the Z50II despite using the timecode to use to sync?

Another option might be to use a pair of DPA 4061s to record audio directly into the PR-2, but then send timecode output to the Nikon?
edit:  I have read conflicting information elsewhere as to whether the PR-2 will simultaneously record audio onto itself while outputting timecode via the 1/8 jack output.  Will it record audio and output TC at the same time or does one have to choose between recording audio or sending timecode via the output jack?   

[willndmb]

Been a while since I last posted. 

Local college choir hasn't updated their on line performance video in a while. Typically 30 members, piano and sometimes organ.  One or two soloists.  Sort of thinking about shooting an updated performance video for them. 

The most simple audio recording setup for me would be midside into SD702 and then manually sync to video.  However, I'm wondering about using the PR-2 to send timecode into one or two unused channels on my old DR680 so I'd have more audio input channels than just the two on the SD702  and maybe use a splitter cable to also send TC to my Nikon Z50 II to sync up the recording?  edit:  The Nikon does not have a dedicated timecode input.  Timecode would have to be input via the camera's microphone input jack.   

Thought about buying a new timecode capable recorder, but I don't really want to buy any more audio recorders.   

I don't know how strong the TC output is on the PR-2.  With other timecode devices, I've read that sometimes the TC signal output may not be strong enough to split like this? 

Then I'm wondering how much drift I'll still have between the DR680 and the Z50II despite using the timecode to use to sync?

Another option might be to use a pair of DPA 4061s to record audio directly into the PR-2, but then send timecode output to the Nikon?
edit:  I have read conflicting information elsewhere as to whether the PR-2 will simultaneously record audio onto itself while outputting timecode via the 1/8 jack output.  Will it record audio and output TC at the same time or does one have to choose between recording audio or sending timecode via the output jack?

ii have never done it but my understanding is you can record and send the signal at once
There are probably YouTube videos showing it too

[2manyrocks]

Haven't found a YT video that tells me whether it's possible to record audio and output TC via the 1/8 output at the same time.  Many of the YT videos are video maker oriented.  So they typically may be using a PR-2 as a lav mic, and using a TC-1 as a separate TC generator into their video camera.  I'd just like to TC sync my audio and my camera using a cable and a splitter from one PR2 without having to buy more stuff. Would be nice just to use the PR2 as the audio recorder and as the TC generator if it will actually do that at the same time. 

What concerns me is whether turning the slider switch to record audio also turns off TC output like it apparently turns off audio output monitoring on the US version running the current firmware? 

   

[fanofjam]

Haven't found a YT video that tells me whether it's possible to record audio and output TC via the 1/8 output at the same time.  Many of the YT videos are video maker oriented.  So they typically may be using a PR-2 as a lav mic, and using a TC-1 as a separate TC generator into their video camera.  I'd just like to TC sync my audio and my camera using a cable and a splitter from one PR2 without having to buy more stuff. Would be nice just to use the PR2 as the audio recorder and as the TC generator if it will actually do that at the same time. 

What concerns me is whether turning the slider switch to record audio also turns off TC output like it apparently turns off audio output monitoring on the US version running the current firmware? 
 

Honestly, I'm not sure, if I were in your shoes, that I'd even worry about digital synching.  If you're only recording a couple of channels, I think the easiest solution, especially if you don't have all of the right cables, might be to not worry about digital synch.  Just let your camera record audio from the internal mic, then strip the audio off and use your PR2 or 680 audio for the final product using the stretch or shrink tool in your DAW to line them up with the camera's audio/video.  That said, I've got some questions/comments about your previous posts...

*******

I might be confused by your question, but if you own both the PR-2 and the DR-680, why don't you just connect them before the performance to see if they do what you want them to do?

I don't know why you couldn't set one or the other of the recorders to be the master while the other is the timecode slave.

As far as your questions about recording both audio and sending timecode, that question is confusing...why would a timecode equipped audio recorder not have the capability to synch timecode (either as the master or slave) with another device and not have the ability to record audio at the same time?  Isn't that the point of including timecode on an audio recorder...to be able to synch with other devices?  Or is this just a question about the connectors on your DR-680 (RCA on the 680 vs 1/8 inch mini on the PR-2)?

Same comment about the strength of signal question.  I'm not sure about using a splitter, but does your camera have an output for feeding timecode to another device?  If so, just daisy chain the devices.  If not, use your DR-680 as a slave from the PR-2 and connect your camera to the digi-out on the 680.  If you want more audio channels, use the 680. That said, why would you need the PR-2 at all if you have a 680?

As far as drift goes, there will certainly be some drift if they are left un-synched, but YMMV if the drift is enough to make any difference between the audio and video.  Of course, it all depends on the length of the recording (the two recordings will drift farther and farther apart the longer the recording is) and how close the internal clocks are on the two devices.  If they only drift a few milliseconds apart by the end of the recording, then you could probably get away without stretching or shrinking the audio.  Drift is certainly way more important when synching audio to audio, rather than audio to video.  Again, just test the devices beforehand to see how much they drift to see if it's too much for the length of performance you expect to see.

[2manyrocks]

Generally speaking, I'd trust other TS members as a much more reliable source of information more than any YT "reviewer."  I've yet to see a single YT video even mention the possibility of using a PR-2 to power DPA 4061s like discussed this thread for example.

Specifically, I'm asking if the PR-2 will record audio internally to itself and simultaneously output timecode over its 1/8 or not? 

[Gutbucket]

Specifically, I'm asking if the PR-2 will record audio internally to itself and simultaneously output timecode over its 1/8 or not?

That's the question.  I don't know the answer. I've only used timecode to sync two PR-2s wirelessly via the Sidus app, but presumably it is possible to send analog timecode out the 1/8" monitor jack while recording if the menu Output Setting is configured as "LTC-3V", yet it is possible that function is effectively disabled on the US version as a byproduct of the removal of audio passthrough.


There are two flavors of Timecode in this device: digital (in/out available over the USB port, and/or bluetooth) and analog (out available over the monitor jack). May be possible to use digital TC out to the camera via USB cable.  And in that case might simultaneously send analog TC signal out to the DR-680 and record it to an audio track for later syncing. If that's not possible or does not work, might use only the analog TC output from the PR-2 (assuming it works on US version), sending that to both the camera and DR680.  Camera may or may not sync to the analog TC output.  If it does not, might just record the analog TC signal to the camera's audio track for sync later.  If recording the analog signal to both the DR-680 and an audio track on the camera, might try splitting the analog signal out of the PR-2 with a 'Y' cable.  If that works it achieves no delay between the signals recorded on both DR-680 and camera). Alternately could daisy chain into the DR680 first then on to the camera.  That will buffer the signal and allow use of the headphone out from the DR680 as variable gain stage feeding the camera, but will add a very slight latency delay through the DR680 AD/DA stages (which will remain constant and is probably inconsequential).

In all these scenarios DR680 is not being actively sync'd but is passively recording analog TC.  The DR-680's digital SPDIF/wordclock in/out is a different format from timecode and won't be used for this.


Hook it all up and try it a few different ways to determine what works, how reliably, and which method makes the most sense.  As fanofjam mentioned it may be easiest to just run free and sync manually.  I suspect sync for a choir performance allows a somewhat looser tolerance than something more percussive.

[lpmaskman]

Just realized the v2.1 firmware has introduced the linked stereo gain! Go to menu > MODE > Track > Stereo Dual Gain.
Now you can adjust the channel volumes linked together! Why it wasn't in the original version....
Also the level display needs be fixed to show dbFS.