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Author Topic: The AKG Active Project - 2  (Read 63702 times)

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Offline willndmb

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2007, 03:05:20 PM »

How significant of an audio difference will separating the caps & bodies with an active cable create?
As I understand it, the physical bodies themselves, not just the electronics, are part of the sound of a microphone. I know people don't seem to run around complaining over a difference between schoeps actives + bodies vs non-active setups but, well, given this talk about the "AKG sound" isn't that worth a consideration?
i have heard JKLabs ck61 and 63 sources
i like them
they do have a different sound then full body 48x sources but its not bad or good just different

i think keeping the bodies around is a plus though vs having a box to replace them
Mics - AKG ck61/ck63 (c480b & Naiant actives), SP-BMC-2
XLR Cables - Silver Path w/Darktrain stubbies
Interconnect Cables - Dogstar (XLR), Darktrain (RCA > 1/8) (1/8 > 1/8), and Kind Kables (1/8f > 1/4)
Preamps - Naiant Littlebox & Tinybox
Recorders - PCM-M10 & DR-60D

spreadheadtom

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2007, 03:24:22 PM »
does anyone have any JK-labs/480 or 460 comps?

i've heard only a few JK labs tapes and thought they sounded pretty good - i'd be curious to hear a direct comp if anyone has one

yes, two members here use them, Ice8888 and songsoffreedom (I think)

are the comps posted anywhere? if someone gets a copy to me I can throw them up on tapers.org publicly if not


not a comp......but I'm pretty sure my Galactic is still running on etree.  (sorry I can't post a link from work)


I absoultely LOVE the JKLabs box!!!

Offline Sanjay

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2007, 03:29:35 PM »
Keep in mind that those like schoepsnbox who are developing a box are spending their own free time to do this. I see nothing wrong with him not openly sharing his design.  Nobody so far has demanded he provide schematics of the nbox, and similarly you don't see people demanding doug oade share his mod secrets.

Richard is fantastic for sharing his thoughts and diagrams with us.  I know he has helped me greatly with at mic mods and such.  Chris church is also great to share his thoughts on mods.  In the end however most advances in technology or any other field would not occur without a profit motive, and frankly if they want to keep their design a secret fine.  I have faith that when they do make a box/actives that they will be affordable within reason.

What it seems to me is that whats happening is alot of people here who have no technical expertise to contribute to this project are complaining that they have no access to the process. 
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2007, 04:00:09 PM »
Keep in mind that those like schoepsnbox who are developing a box are spending their own free time to do this. I see nothing wrong with him not openly sharing his design.  Nobody so far has demanded he provide schematics of the nbox, and similarly you don't see people demanding doug oade share his mod secrets.

Well in the case of Doug I don't know if anyone simply has asked.  Now him telling is a whole different story.   ;D

Different people have worked on different aspects of this project.  Sharing of information could only benefit others I would think.    One of the things that we tried to accomplish was to take all the available information from various people and put it all together so that this could actually see the light of day.   Also we ran into a situation where everyone contacted that had a JL Labs AKG box wanted and quite frankly were adamnet that the information culled from their boxes was to be shared openly for their participation

Richard is fantastic for sharing his thoughts and diagrams with us.  I know he has helped me greatly with at mic mods and such.  Chris church is also great to share his thoughts on mods.  In the end however most advances in technology or any other field would not occur without a profit motive, and frankly if they want to keep their design a secret fine.  I have faith that when they do make a box/actives that they will be affordable within reason.

Well that's the hope that it will be affordable.  <Hypothetical statement coming> But who's to say that Richard couldn't have figured it out and had a product out in the market if some others had also shared their information by now?

What it seems to me is that whats happening is alot of people here who have no technical expertise to contribute to this project are complaining that they have no access to the process. 

I agree partially with this.  The way I see it is that for years and years people (myslef included) have talked about wanting an AKG active setup with no result.  I think that people with or without technical expertise just want to move this thing forward.   Several years later we seem to be only minimally a step forward.  If schoepsinbox does not have the time, the will or whatever then I would implore him to share so that this can happen.   

Back to affordable price now.  What is considered affordable?  I for one see the market bearing around $1000 per set up.  What are the nboxes and JKLabs boxes going for now?

The biggest problem it seems to me is finding someone with the time to see this thing through and having knowledge is the one of the keys to that.

Offline Sanjay

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2007, 04:05:53 PM »
The biggest problem it seems to me is finding someone with the time to see this thing through and having knowledge is the one of the keys to that.

EXACTLY.  The reason we don't have JK labs around and a few others is because of burnout.  It is very very stressful to build these things for other people. 

As for affordable I don't see why they couldn't be around the same price as the Nbox is which is I believe ~1100, and a big part of his cost is the collettes from schoeps.

And to clear up this wasn't an attack on you or anything, I love open source things as much as anyone, I just think that this is such a huge undertaking that without a profit motive it will get lost in the frey.

As far as the open source project, the hardest part has been done!  Richard had success with his setup, detailed in the schematic.  Now all you all need to do is figure out how to get a center contact pin and the FET inside a collette.  Also possibly research a way to get 60v powering without a brick of 9v's.  The hardest part (electronically) has been done.  Now someone with a watchmakers hand and machine shop skills can take it and run with it. 
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2007, 04:10:32 PM »
Keep in mind that those like schoepsnbox who are developing a box are spending their own free time to do this. I see nothing wrong with him not openly sharing his design.  Nobody so far has demanded he provide schematics of the nbox, and similarly you don't see people demanding doug oade share his mod secrets.

Well in the case of Doug I don't know if anyone simply has asked.  Now him telling is a whole different story.   ;D

Different people have worked on different aspects of this project.  Sharing of information could only benefit others I would think.    One of the things that we tried to accomplish was to take all the available information from various people and put it all together so that this could actually see the light of day.   Also we ran into a situation where everyone contacted that had a JL Labs AKG box wanted and quite frankly were adamnet that the information culled from their boxes was to be shared openly for their participation

Richard is fantastic for sharing his thoughts and diagrams with us.  I know he has helped me greatly with at mic mods and such.  Chris church is also great to share his thoughts on mods.  In the end however most advances in technology or any other field would not occur without a profit motive, and frankly if they want to keep their design a secret fine.  I have faith that when they do make a box/actives that they will be affordable within reason.

Well that's the hope that it will be affordable.  <Hypothetical statement coming> But who's to say that Richard couldn't have figured it out and had a product out in the market if some others had also shared their information by now?

What it seems to me is that whats happening is alot of people here who have no technical expertise to contribute to this project are complaining that they have no access to the process. 

I agree partially with this.  The way I see it is that for years and years people (myslef included) have talked about wanting an AKG active setup with no result.  I think that people with or without technical expertise just want to move this thing forward.   Several years later we seem to be only minimally a step forward.  If schoepsinbox does not have the time, the will or whatever then I would implore him to share so that this can happen.   

Back to affordable price now.  What is considered affordable?  I for one see the market bearing around $1000 per set up.  What are the nboxes and JKLabs boxes going for now?

The biggest problem it seems to me is finding someone with the time to see this thing through and having knowledge is the one of the keys to that.

I think its very unfair for you to think someone like my self is going to share information so someone else can come along and build it and profit from it I would not want any part in that and I am pretty sure I can speak for Richard as well. No designer is going to want to share so others can make a profit. I was willing to share not so someone else could build them and sell them, but so one of you DIY guys could figure it out and build one for them selves. This thread will never move forward. If this is the attitude that we should just give it up so someone else can make money. Not cool, I would gladly give up what ever information I have to help a person and help them do it for them selves but the minute I see my ideas copied and resold I am gone.

This is actually not about making money its about a FREE exchange of ideas so that maybe all of us together could come up with a solution and maybe build a few. But the cost is still going to be stupid expensive not to mention the time it takes to "whip this up" I think that's the thing that gets missed here it takes 1000's of hours to design something like this so it works and does not degrade the sound. From machining to fabrication to etching the circuit building the circuit doing the artwork for the circuit your talking a huge amount of hours. I think the best solutions are the simple ones. I would say one of the best ways to do this is make a screw on adaptor that uses the mic body and transfers all of the voltage from the mic body to the mic capsule via a multiconductor wire to a connector that is mounted on the mic body and the mic capsule. Its a simple yet effective idea that does not involve reinventing the wheel and would seem to me to be the most achievable way of doing this.

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Offline bluegrass_brad

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2007, 04:15:06 PM »
Chris you should probably go read the original thread so you are up to speed. Many of the points you bring up have been covered.
"That was back in a time when society was not quite ready for this music. Anyone remember those days? That's when punk rock was dangerous, right?  You couldn't walk into a mall and get your little pussy pierced, and your little Doc Martin boots and your crazy color for your hair.  You walk down the street with blue hair you was gonna get in a fight with about 5 angry construction workers, or the local college football team, rednecks or cops. Sometimes they kicked our ass, but you know what?  Sometimes we beat the fuck out of em"  - Mike Ness, Social Distortion

Offline grider

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2007, 04:28:17 PM »
I would be willing to pay 1000 to 1500 to keep my entire rig and separate the mic bodies (and put them in a Pelican case in my gear bag) from the mic caps via an active cable, I really like the 480s but as many of us agree the bodies can be a pain in the ass sometimes, and Chris if anything I think most of us would eagerly welcome your participation in doing so, for profit or not, on your terms

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2007, 04:31:56 PM »
Chris you should probably go read the original thread so you are up to speed. Many of the points you bring up have been covered.

I am sorry Brad I thought I had read the whole entire thread. I guess I missed a few things I did come into this very late in the game. And I am not sure how much help I can be, But I will try. So what am I missing?

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Offline Sanjay

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2007, 04:34:37 PM »
Chris just so you know I was not suggesting one bit you contribute your time and ideas for someone else to make a profit.  I was saying if you or in fact anyone else out there develops a box/actives that they should be entitled to keep it a secret because its your hard work who did it.

Either way here's to hoping one comes about. 
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Offline bluegrass_brad

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2007, 04:35:02 PM »

I am sorry Brad I thought I had read the whole entire thread. I guess I missed a few things I did come into this very late in the game. And I am not sure how much help I can be, But I will try. So what am I missing?


http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,59577.0.html
This is the original thread, lots of stuff in it.
"That was back in a time when society was not quite ready for this music. Anyone remember those days? That's when punk rock was dangerous, right?  You couldn't walk into a mall and get your little pussy pierced, and your little Doc Martin boots and your crazy color for your hair.  You walk down the street with blue hair you was gonna get in a fight with about 5 angry construction workers, or the local college football team, rednecks or cops. Sometimes they kicked our ass, but you know what?  Sometimes we beat the fuck out of em"  - Mike Ness, Social Distortion

Offline grider

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2007, 04:36:57 PM »
Chris you should probably go read the original thread so you are up to speed. Many of the points you bring up have been covered.

I am sorry Brad I thought I had read the whole entire thread. I guess I missed a few things I did come into this very late in the game. And I am not sure how much help I can be, But I will try. So what am I missing?



what has been envisioned by some of us is the active set up like the ck1x>mk46>460 set up that some of us have, but for the 480 microphones, never has AKG made an active set up for the 480 mics so we are stalled

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2007, 05:41:34 PM »
Chris just so you know I was not suggesting one bit you contribute your time and ideas for someone else to make a profit.  I was saying if you or in fact anyone else out there develops a box/actives that they should be entitled to keep it a secret because its your hard work who did it.

Either way here's to hoping one comes about. 

Oh I know that.  ;) I dont see any profit in this to be honest I dont think it will sell that well and as a result the time and energy it takes to do this would be wasted if profit was a goal. Instead I would rather share my ideas and see if someone can use them so that a freely available schematic and blueprint for machining could be done. So that no one can make a profit from this free exchange of ideas. I really dont think its worth it to spend $1000 bucks on a active system but that's just me. I dont see any sonic advantage just a physical one and wow $1000 bucks so you can mount your mics in a different way seems pretty crazy to me. But again I am willing to help in any way I can 100% FREE OF CHARGE. I really think you guys should look at aco pacific they make a great little box that could power your mics and provide a gain stage for them. But I am unsure of the price and of course collets would still have to be made and a fet would still have to be installed. This company ACO makes some very high end preamps and capsules like Bruel and Kjear I think it would be worth a call to them to find out what the price of there dual preamp is that can provide 60 volts of polarization voltage for your capsules.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2007, 05:48:49 PM »
Ok, a number of random thoughts on Pt 2, if only so I can keep track of it better.  :P

Profit -- I don't find it a problem at all that people want to make a profit off this.  As Chris mentioned, it will take a lot of time to make this happen.  For most people, time is a precious commodity and the ability to make money off one's efforts can entice otherwise too-busy people.  I guess it would've been nice if this could've come together as a type of ts.com community project, but after all this time it doesn't look like it will.

I guess related to that, Chris, I didn't take the weekend project comment at being some kind of slam.  It just seems that with the time you are already investing in running your business, making your current products, and designing new products like your preamp, it doesn't seem like you'd have too much time left for this actives project save the weekends.  I guess I'm assuming that for all the desire to have this product available, with no offering on the horizon, it appears to be a fairly significant development process.  Someone, presumably a vendor, will need to decide if the potential market for this justifies the development effort.

On the market:  Chris, you might think the $1000 price tag isn't justified in terms of added functionality, but us tapers are a loony bunch. ;D  I loved having my jklabs AKG actives, and when I sold the jklabs system (about $900-950 not including ck61 caps and accessories I guess if I had to split out the cost), I had at least a half-dozen offers within minutes.  Caps only for having the option for AKG stealth recordings, smaller profile for not quite sanctioned FOB recording, faster set-up/break-down, ability to have many active mic pairs on one stand, ability to use smaller rig bag/smaller stand, etc -- lots of reasons why people want an active capsule set up.  It may seem crazy, but I think there is a decent market for this type of setup, at least within the taper community.

On the market, II:  As to price, from what the jklabs sold for and compared to other active setups, I'd venture that the active active system if it replaced the mic bodies could probably sell in the $800-1000 range, if the system would still rely on the 480 bodies, probably more like $400-500.

On the market, III:  I don't think there'll be consensus on a box to replace the bodies vs. keeping the bodies but developing active cables to go with the 480's, at least from what I saw in the first thread.  Personally, I loved the jklabs box that replaced the 480 bodies.  As to sound, the ck6x + jklabs setup sounded very much like the 480/ck61, but not exactly the same.  Again, personally, I liked the jklabs sound better to my ears.  But being different shouldn't mean it is pointless since you are throwing out the AKG sound.  The sound is still going to be very similar due to the caps.  Also, lots of people like the JWilliams modded 460s, which is also essentially throwing out the (exact) AKG sound. 

On the development:  It seems like with the information that has already been shared, the general schematic for the electronics is known.  What seems to be needed is working on the mechanics, colletts, integration, testing.

Next steps:  Is it time to give up on the AKG actives as a community project?  I really don't know who the active people on this are, so I don't know, but from reading the threads it seems that way.  If it is going to be done by a vendor-type, including people like the n-box folks, do they need any help or do we just need to sit tight and wait until it's ready?

Also, as I mentioned the JWilliams 460 upgrades, it makes me wonder if it is worth getting in touch with Jim to try to prod him into trying to make an offering.  I'm sure he has the ability, if he thought the market justified it.  I guess though this probably depends on whether our "own" folks like Chris Church or schoepsnbox don't think they'll be making a system available.

Wow -- too many thoughts.  I guess that's what happens when you are away from ts.com for 10 days.  :P

Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline Todd R

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Re: The AKG Active Project - 2
« Reply #59 on: March 12, 2007, 06:07:00 PM »
I really dont think its worth it to spend $1000 bucks on a active system but that's just me. I dont see any sonic advantage just a physical one and wow $1000 bucks so you can mount your mics in a different way seems pretty crazy to me.


Well, to defend myself since I did spend this amount:  :P  that is $1000 and no need for 480 bodies, which on the used market are probably like $600.  So it really is spending $400 to gain those physical/form factor benefits, not $1000.

It really depends on what you tape, how you tape, and what is important to you.  For me, having a smaller form factor so I can set-up in 1-2 minutes and break-down in 1-2 minutes is a big benefit -- my non-taping friends don't need to come into the club way early, and I'm ready to go show is over right away so they're not hanging around waiting for me.  The small size lets me get to the show later and just clamp on another tapers stand (for section taping) is also a benefit.  The small size that lets me run in un-sanctioned FOB locations more discretely and lets me throw up mics as soon as the house lights go down is a benefit.  The ability to run my nice caps (formerly AKG ck6x, now Milab VM44) in stealth situations is a benefit.  The very small size of mics that are mounted to a stand, which allows me to carry a smaller/lighter t-bar and smaller/lighter stand is a benefit.  For instance, bar hopping after a show carrying only my 21" long APIC stand versus carrying a beefy 42" long Bogen stand is _way_ nicer.

OK, I guess I'm just trying to sell you on the notion so you might jump in with both feet. :) 
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

 

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