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Author Topic: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...  (Read 7631 times)

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Offline jcable77

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2020, 05:16:12 PM »
I know who you can sell your cp3's to if you happen to take the plunge  ::)
AKG or ADK>Sound Devices

Offline robeti

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2020, 05:43:57 PM »
I keep my Nakamichi things and subcards. Too rare to sell. I will surely regret it at some point and then find myself being in the position of not being able to buy them back because they're impossible to get. No thanks.
mics: schoeps mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/) | ca-11 c/o
power: ca-ubb | ca-9200
recorder: roland r-05 (x2)
video: panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 12:46:38 PM »
The MK41s are great for either distant recording or high crowd noise recording.  I would not use these in a small club or quiet venue, for example.

Why not??
The only times that I've heard issues with 41's have been when they were run on-stage/stage-lip and they didn't pick up the keys/synth/vocals that were all DI.  And in a smallish/medium sized room where reflections were picked up because they were mounted with too wide of an angle. But they can sound great when on-stage when DI's are not involved.  And in small rooms when you learn to avoid the reflections.

In some situations, other capsules might be more proper..  but IMO, 41's can be used most anywhere.   
Part of the learning curve with 41's is to figure out how they can be used best in various situations.
If a person is only going to have one pair of Schoeps, 41's are a great all-around capsule.

In a small club, close in, one would actually want omni microphones.  At least I would.  The MK4s are as close as I can get to that, having stupidly sold my DPAs a few years back.  I would love to pick up a pair of MK21s which would be a perfect choice, but I have never seen them for sale on a used basis. I wonder if they would sound better than the DPAs.   
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 12:53:10 PM by Scooter123 »
Regards,

Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2020, 01:00:53 PM »
Schoeps MK 21 is similar in pattern to DPA 4015.  Both subcardioids.
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Offline checht

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2020, 04:59:11 PM »
This year I switched from MK4's to MK41's and am very happy.

Favorite characteristics: less boomy sound in indoor venues, and better rejection of nearby crowd noise.
According to folks more knowledgable than I, hypers don't function analogously to a zoom lens. They won't make a distant source sound closer, though less crowd noise allows me to focus on the distant source better.

With nBob KCY, and Naiant IPA and PFA I'm set for all recording situations.

There's a pair of nBob actives located in EU in the yardsale:
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=194180.0

Favorite capsules ever, prefer to the MK4's and KM84i's.

Have fun!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 05:01:40 PM by checht »
Schoeps MK41s > nbob KCY >
Naiant PFA 60v > Sound Devices MP-6  or  Naiant IPA > Roland R-07

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2020, 07:50:54 PM »
a big vote for 4v>bnb. I get plenty of high end. I break out the 41v for those rare occasions I'm not close, I'm almost never far from stage,  And if Kangol mounting is your thing, verticals are what you want. Imo.
😈 Mk4v/41v>nbob actives>Baby nbox>Oade warm mod Marantz 620.

Open: 4v/41v>nbobs>Nicky mod Naiant PFA>Oade warm mod 661.

Home: the Stereo Hospital budget refurb rig: Lappie>DragonFly Cobalt/Red with Jitterbug>Nikko NR520 amp>B&W V202 speakers.

Offline edtyre

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2020, 10:55:29 AM »
I tryed to hang in there with my cards but there
is way too much talking, clapping, whistling, stomping
even in my good sounding small rooms.
Now I pretty much use the 41v’s for most and I
agree that verticals fit the brim perfect!
music>mics>pre>recorder

Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2020, 05:58:34 PM »
Someone in this thread wrote to me privately and asked for my comment. So this isn't a direct reply to anything that's already been posted; it's more like, if you take a step back and ask about cardioid vs. supercardioid, what are the issues?

The thing is, stereo recording goes beyond the behavior of the individual microphones, and gets into how they work together. In that respect, if I were forced to give up one pattern completely, I would sooner give up cardioids than supercardioids.

(a) Most microphones that their manufacturers call either "supercardioid" or "hypercardioid" are neither; they're nearly always something in between those two patterns, with their specific parameters chosen for whatever applications the microphone will be marketed for. Most directional microphones are designed for communications, since that market is many times larger than the market for music recording. When a manufacturer uses the term "hypercardioid" it tends to imply that the microphone was designed for speech pickup, and will sound thin when used for music recording. The exceptions can be counted on the fingers of one hand and you wouldn't even need to use your thumb.

(b) Cardioid is a rather broad pickup pattern. Whoever thought of calling it "unidirectional" owes the world an apology. Cardioids have barely enough directivity to be usable for coincident stereo recording--and when they are used that way, they generally pick up too much from the center; the result is often halfway to being mono, particularly at low frequencies (and particularly if the cardioid is dual-diaphragm, for reasons I won't go into here).

At the side of a cardioid, the response is only 6 dB down from the front. If someone is being loud and obnoxious at 90 degrees from you, they'll still be loud and obnoxious in your cardioid mikes--and since those mikes are almost certainly angled apart to some extent, the disturbing sound will probably be nearly on-axis for one of your mikes. Supercardioids let you get equivalent spaciousness with less of an angle between the capsules (or choose whatever compromise you like).

(c) Supercardioid isn't a very narrow pattern, either, but it's definitely different enough to "earn its keep". And the difference gets multiplied several-fold in stereo--partly because of how our ears and brains work, and partly because the difference is in three dimensions rather than only two. Supercardioids used for stereo recording have much less of the "too strong center" problem, since at any given moment on average, the two channels have more difference between them than you would get with cardioids placed the same way. There's more "mutual exclusivity" between channels for any given angle and distance between them.

(d part 1) All other things being equal, a supercardioid of a given type of construction will generally have a little less low-frequency response overall than a cardioid of similar construction. But it's at least equally important (1) whether the pattern is maintained at low frequencies or "blooms out", and (2) how the microphone responds to standing waves in an enclosed space (which is mainly a concern at mid-low and low frequencies). For the most part a supercardioid (again, "all other things being equal") will keep its pattern better at the lowest frequencies AND will be less influenced by standing waves. Both attributes tend to make the low frequencies sound clearer on a recording.

(d part 2) Paradoxically perhaps, a stereo recording made with supercardioids can often feel more spacious than one made with similarly-placed cardioids, provided that the capsules are angled apart far enough. That may go against some people's expectations, since they reason that a narrower pattern -> less overall pickup of ambient sound. But what our ears and brains respond to is "difference-between-the-channels" information, especially at low frequencies--and cardioids (especially dual-diaphragm cardioids, i.e. all electrically switchable types) are rather bad at delivering that information, while supercardioids are generally better at it.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 09:33:46 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline heathen

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2020, 11:29:26 PM »
Is it really fair to compare cards set up in the same configuration as supers though?  Any configuration that brings out the best in one will necessarily not work as well for the other.  One could equally criticize supers for not being ideal when set up in a configuration that best suits cards.
Recordings on LMA: https://archive.org/search.php?query=taper%3A%22Lucas+Lorenz%22
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2020, 04:46:38 PM »
heathen, of course, if you choose any type of microphone for a given application on the basis of how you imagine that it works--when it doesn't really work that way--you probably won't get the best possible results. That doesn't mean that the microphone is "bad", or that you can't make good recordings with it. But you're more likely long-term to make good recordings either (a) with more generally appropriate types of microphones (once you've learned how to use them), and/or (b) if you understand your microphones correctly, instead of some other way that you were imagining for whatever reason.

People here really put a lot of their heart and soul into getting the best sound they can. That's exactly what I try to support; I think the people who put in that kind of effort deserve all the satisfaction they can get. Still, when people are trying to decide which type of microphones to buy and/or use, I try to raise awareness and advocate critical thinking so that people don't buy into myths and folklore as much as they unfortunately seem to do (cough cough stereo pairs of shotguns or of large dual-diaphragm microphones cough cough). I get the impression that a lot of people don't really understand the whole phenomenon of directionality or directivity in microphones, particularly where stereo recording is concerned, because they talk so much about what the microphones are "aimed at" or "pointed at", and they don't often seem to consider the sound field at and around the microphone, which is all that a microphone can pick up. People seem to confuse directional microphones with telephoto lenses on cameras, although that analogy is way misleading.

But back to your point, yeah, I was just talking with someone about microphone "shootouts" and how they're great if the microphones are pretty much the same type--but when they're not, there's no way that both microphones be set up optimally for the type of recording that's being done, if they're right next to each other or on top of one another; at least one of the microphones (and maybe both) would be placed rather differently if its own characteristics were being respected. That's pretty similar to the point that you're making, I think.

I mean, sooner or later, everything about microphones that's worth describing in words can also be discovered through listening, or else it's probably not worth describing in the first place. But please see the fortune cookie slip attached, which I really think is true as well.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 05:02:55 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline BradleyJY15

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2020, 09:48:30 AM »
I am going to get a pair of MK41s.  I am leaning towards the 41, not 41V. I already have a pair of MK22 caps, and I love that sound.  But want to add the 41 caps to really have 2 ways to pick up a show.
Schoeps MK22 -> Nbob Actives -> Naiant PFA -> SD MixPre-6ii

Offline guitard

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2020, 08:11:21 PM »
I am also thinking about making the jump up to Schoeps.  MK41s seem to be the all-purpose model, but I'd like to know more about the others.  I looked around for a comparison chart, but couldn't find anything.  Does anyone know of such a chart?

Note - I almost always >:D record audio and video at shows I attend; so I have to balance between a good spot for filming and a good spot for audio.  On a fairly regular basis, I end up in spots that are not all that great for recording audio (near the front row in small venues, for example).

Thanks!
Mics: CA-11 (omnis and cards), AT853 cards, DPA 4060 omnis (Schoeps MK41s on order!)
Pre-amps: CA-UGLY II & CA-9100
Decks: Edirol R-07 & Edirol R-09HR

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Photo: Canon EOS 60D

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 13.0 (build 453) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline DSatz

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2020, 10:48:01 PM »
guitard, what kind of chart do you mean--what kind(s) of information would it show?
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline guitard

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2020, 07:44:34 AM »
guitard, what kind of chart do you mean--what kind(s) of information would it show?

Sorry - I should have been more clear.  I'm not looking for something official.  I thought maybe somewhere along the line, a taper might have put together a comparison chart that shows which Schoeps mic(s) would be best for a really loud shows, quieter jazz shows, in a big shed, in a small venue, etc.  Basic stuff like that.
Mics: CA-11 (omnis and cards), AT853 cards, DPA 4060 omnis (Schoeps MK41s on order!)
Pre-amps: CA-UGLY II & CA-9100
Decks: Edirol R-07 & Edirol R-09HR

Video: Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K) & Sony DSC HX50V (HD)
Photo: Canon EOS 60D

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 13.0 (build 453) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2020, 11:21:59 AM »
Rather than straight cardioids I find I tend to gravitate towards supercardioids or subcardioids. 

When I speculate about why that might be (and with full recognition of what DSatz mentions above about pattern behavior and appropriate stereo pair arrangements), I'm not sure I can really identify a clear reason for this other than recognizing that a straight (-6dB at 90 degrees) cardioid pattern simply represents the obvious mid-way point along the entire 1st order directivity continuum between omni and bidirectional: carioid being the sum of 1/2 omni + 1/2 fig-8 components.  It's just that particular convenient pattern categorization doesn't necessarily align with what is most useful for me in my recording scenarios in which I find myself.  I find I generally either want a more super-ish or more subcardioid-ish pattern than cardioid.   Especially when employing an array of microphones intended to be combined.

In that way, rather than representing any kind of empirically-derived ideal I think of the cardioid pattern as sort of being a somewhat arbitrarily imposed platonic idea.  The "Cardioid compromize".
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

 

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