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Author Topic: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...  (Read 9255 times)

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Offline chk

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2020, 12:50:37 PM »
I had Nak’s previously (cm1, cm3, cm4), have owned/used a variety of schoeps caps. I primarily use the mk41’s and have use them everywhere from arenas to onstage in tiny clubs. They sound great in all applications, even where they “shouldn’t”, e.g., onstage. I loved the naks and still do but the schoeps are a big upgrade in sound quality, balance, smoothness. Go for it.

Offline aaronji

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2020, 01:00:17 PM »
Obviously, there is a distance at which the proportion of direct sound becomes too small to be of value to the recordist (whether that is within or outside of the critical distance). Wouldn't that distance be 1.7 times further for a card than an omni?

Up to the point where the direct sound becomes swamped by the reverberant sound, yes.

The "distance at which the proportion of direct sound becomes too small to be of value" is more-or-less the same as "the point where the direct sound becomes swamped by the reverberant sound". Which, I think, leads to the conclusion that the distance factor "rule of thumb" is useful to consider at reasonable taping distances, where the level of the direct signal is sufficiently above the ambient/reverberant sound.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2020, 01:52:47 PM »
.. the distance factor "rule of thumb" is useful to consider at reasonable taping distances, where the level of the direct signal is sufficiently above the ambient/reverberant sound.

What is a reasonable taping distance?  The answer is going to vary wildly depending on who you ask and what kind of recording you are talking about.

For acoustic performers without a PA a reasonable distance is generally considered to be somewhere around the critical-distance.  That distance varies with the size of the room and how reverberant it is, but is considerably closer than typical audience-taping distances.   Picture a main pair of microphones flown above and just behind the conductor of an orchestra, generally placed near the critical-distance.  At best, only the middle of first few rows of seating are within that range.   Similar to stage-lip taping an acoustic performer without PA.  From further back you'll wish for the help of the PA unless you don't mind a very distant and diffuse sounding recording.  And with a PA you better be within its direct-sound coverage area.

If we have the majority of the direct-sound amplified thorough a PA instead of relying on direct radiation from acoustic instruments, the critical-distance shifts farther back into the audience.  The design of modern PAs is very much about carefully tailoring directional power response so as to to decrease radiation of direct-sound in directions other than directly toward the audience.   That audience taping a band playing through a large PA is often not ideal from the front few rows is an indication of the directional nature of PAs designed to project more of their direct sound further back into the audience than into the area just in front of the stage.

PA taping is a quite odd thing in the world of recording and acoustics.  What is a reasonable "taper" distance is not reasonable at all for most other forms of music recording.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 02:26:55 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline aaronji

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2020, 02:18:25 PM »
^ A "reasonable taping distance", at least for open taping, is "the best spot the venue will let me put my stand".  ;)

There may be some added flexibility for stealth...
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2020, 02:29:23 PM »
Egzactly! Reasonable is relative.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<<

Offline robeti

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2020, 07:15:41 PM »
I had Nak’s previously (cm1, cm3, cm4), have owned/used a variety of schoeps caps. I primarily use the mk41’s and have use them everywhere from arenas to onstage in tiny clubs. They sound great in all applications, even where they “shouldn’t”, e.g., onstage. I loved the naks and still do but the schoeps are a big upgrade in sound quality, balance, smoothness. Go for it.

Thanks! I will!
mics: schoeps mk41 (matched) | nakamichi cm-300 (JB mod/cp1/cp2/cp3) | nakamichi cm-50 | primo em4052pmi4's | sp-cmc-4u/at-853 4.7k mod (shotguns/h/c/sc/) | ca-11 c/o
power: ca-ubb | ca-9200 | nbob actives > baby nbox 
recorder: roland r-05 
video: panasonic zs100 | panasonic hdc-sd600 | sony hx9v | sony hx50v

Offline kuba e

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2020, 07:23:36 PM »
Tank you Aanronji and Gutbucket. These are very nice posts.

Online DSatz

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #52 on: July 09, 2020, 12:50:58 PM »
kuba, another suggestion: Schoeps microphones with the MK 41 capsule are commonly available for rent on a daily or weekly basis from various companies that support film and video sound recordists. Maybe it would be worth your while to set up an account with such a company and rent a pair for trial, when the time comes that there's something you want to record. There's nothing quite like having the item in your hands, using it the way that makes best sense to you, then listening to the results and comparing that to what you hoped for or expected.

Each type of microphone has a learning experience attached to it. So the acquisition of a new type of microphone also calls for adjustments in oneself. All the cookbook recipes are just starting points; then you listen and adapt your technique to suit your purposes and preferences.

--best regards
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline EmRR

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #53 on: July 09, 2020, 04:23:14 PM »
I'll surely repeat something already said, so sorry ahead: 

The pattern of the mic at some low frequency will be reduced to omni, generally speaking.  Higher directivity will at least help knock back the sliding frequency scale from expected pattern at some mid frequency to omni reverberant pickup in the extreme lows.  Any bass rolloff that comes with is also there to control it and keep the pattern more in check.  You may still get 'all reverb', but it should be less muddy with a pattern having greater directivity.  I think!  Certainly some circumstance exists that would prove it wrong. 

Moving beyond 2 mics, I like having a coincident omni or a pair of spaced omni outriggers as an option.  Many times in clubs my center coincident ends up being a tighter pattern to knock down reverb and it drags the bass down too far, I can then use a low pass filter of some type with the omni(s) to rebalance the spectrum, if AB then it adds low frequency spaciousness without adding mid and top reverb. 

If you're well past the critical distance, you're also fighting treble losses.  That's what the treble boost in so many mics is there to compensate for. 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 01:46:34 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Online DSatz

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2020, 08:42:29 PM »
Oooh ... that's a bit confusing, I find. The microphone's directional behavior doesn't change based on how far it is from the sound sources, but the makeup of the sound field at the microphone surely does.

I would emphasize that a microphone can only pick up the sound field that's present at its location--or some selected portion of that sound field, based on the microphone's pickup pattern. The farther a microphone is from the sound sources in a reverberant environment, the more the sound field at the microphone will consist of diffuse, reflected sound rather than direct sound. "Diffuse" characterizes both the arrival times and the angles of arrival. It's those sound arrivals that become increasingly "omnidirectional" with greater miking distances, in that their angles of incidence become more and more nearly random; the microphone doesn't become any more "omnidirectional" itself.

At the same time, at greater distances the microphone's diffuse-field response (i.e. all angles integrated, and taking its directional pattern into account), rather than its on-axis response, increasingly characterizes the sound that you'll get with it. This is precisely the situation in which a small, high-quality single-diaphragm supercardioid microphone excels over larger microphones of all kinds, dual-diaphragm microphones of all kinds, and/or other directional patterns. (Actually a pure figure-8 has the best match between on-axis response and diffuse-field response "all other things being equal", but surely you don't want rear lobes that are as sensitive as the 0-degree pickup when you're far away from the sound source.)

I know that I say this often, but I still feel as if there are people who aren't paying attention: This is why shotgun microphones are such a poor choice for indoor miking at substantial distances--their diffuse-field response at high and upper-midrange frequencies SUCKS. At such distances the angles of sound arrival are mostly random, and the interference tube simply adds coloration rather than filtering out reflections. The tiny residue of direct sound at the front of the microphone is buried within all the other front-arriving sound, and the interference tube can't tell them apart.

By contrast, a good supercardioid (I'm very fond of the Schoeps MK 41 V in this respect) has a diffuse-field response that isn't very much different from its on-axis response. The MK 41 is a little brighter in its diffuse-field response than the 41 V is, if you want the kind of "distance compensation" that EmRR is talking about, and its response is flatter up to frequencies which I no longer hear, but that some people still do.

--best regards
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 09:06:03 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline guitard

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2020, 09:22:36 AM »
I just took the plunge on a new pair of matched MK41s!

I'm totally psyched!!  Now ... I just have to hope some upcoming shows for which I have tickets don't get canceled and I actually get to use them. ;)
Mics: CA-11 (omnis and cards), AT853 cards, DPA 4060 omnis, Schoeps MK41s
Pre-amps: CA-UGLY II & CA-9100; BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox + Actives for the MK41s
Decks: Edirol R-07 & Edirol R-09HR

Video: Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K) & Sony DSC HX50V (HD)
Photo: Canon EOS 60D

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 13.0 (build 453) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2020, 04:28:59 PM »
I just took the plunge on a new pair of matched MK41s!

I'm totally psyched!!  Now ... I just have to hope some upcoming shows for which I have tickets don't get canceled and I actually get to use them. ;)

Sweet,
Your going to need nbob cables and babynbox.

Offline guitard

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2020, 04:46:13 PM »
I just took the plunge on a new pair of matched MK41s!

I'm totally psyched!!  Now ... I just have to hope some upcoming shows for which I have tickets don't get canceled and I actually get to use them. ;)

Sweet,
Your going to need nbob cables and babynbox.

Already got with Nick (schoepsnbox) on that.  Since I am 99% >:D  -- I am opting for the plastic box version of the Nbob Platinum.
Mics: CA-11 (omnis and cards), AT853 cards, DPA 4060 omnis, Schoeps MK41s
Pre-amps: CA-UGLY II & CA-9100; BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox + Actives for the MK41s
Decks: Edirol R-07 & Edirol R-09HR

Video: Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K) & Sony DSC HX50V (HD)
Photo: Canon EOS 60D

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 13.0 (build 453) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline beatkilla

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2020, 04:59:43 PM »
I just took the plunge on a new pair of matched MK41s!

I'm totally psyched!!  Now ... I just have to hope some upcoming shows for which I have tickets don't get canceled and I actually get to use them. ;)

Sweet,
Your going to need nbob cables and babynbox.

Already got with Nick (schoepsnbox) on that.  Since I am 99% >:D  -- I am opting for the plastic box version of the Nbob Platinum.

Ok

But babynbox is plastic and much smaller.
I’ll send you pics later.

Offline seethreepo

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2020, 06:42:42 PM »
I just took the plunge on a new pair of matched MK41s!

I'm totally psyched!!  Now ... I just have to hope some upcoming shows for which I have tickets don't get canceled and I actually get to use them. ;)

crazy upgrade! how much if you dont mind?  (total for nbox, cables and caps) ?
Mics: Sound Professionals - SP-CMC-8 , Studio Projects SPC4, Beyerdynamic ck930 , Marcsounds binaurals
Pre amps: Beyerdynamic MV-1 ,  Naiant IPA
Recorders:  Edirol R-44, Edirol R-09HR, Roland  R-05, Tascam  Dr-2d

 

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